---

An excellent senario for this crash..No Missile, No Bomb, No engine
failure, Just human error...

We have met the emmeny, and he am us !
Pogo, about 1966..
------
I've checked oil, fuel, engine records, production/overhaul records and
your senario is, in my opinion excellent.
Thanks, major updating within 48 hours. Excerpts from NTSB and UK reports on the crashes. It's all there. Cargo doors.
Just so that you will know, in 1985 the Aviation Safety Institute's late
founder John Galipault tried to have the FAA require major revisions made to
this area on B-747s.

Also 3 of the possible nose off crashes the B-747s started out on the
production line as freighters. (Not Lockerbie) But a small bomb there could
have started this type failure by blowing out the cargo door..completely or
enough into the airstream to let it tear back as you have described..(I
never thought that the bomb was big enough to blow up the aircraft..only in
movies..right?)

In December 1992, I was chastized severely by an employer for speaking to
the Pilots Training Association on the importance of a preflight inspection
and I used several pictures like those that you used build your case..I
resigned the next day.

Do you want to go futher with this? is a reporter at Newsday
her e-mail is "" I will be sending her a note shortly
concerning your report..
Do you want to bet that on TWA:800 that apx 6+ bodies from first class area
are never recovered..

Don't forget cabin crew in first class/galley areas..

I'm trying to get info on passenger seating for PA103/UAL811 /others..I'll
relay to you ASAR if I get a response..?
More fuel for you, the cargo door was found closest to JFK on the flight
path and between the door and the main debris field there was a 5 mile long
/ 1/2 mile wide area that contained baggage from the forward crago hold..No
bomb residues detected with primary detection tool:EGIS..
Baggage samples sent to the FBI Wash DC for further testing: From CNN 9:00am
Eastern time and inside NTSB source.

Yesterday, NY Times: the cockpit instrument glass / light bulbs and stairway
light glass lenses were unbroken..
I got it this am, I had about 500+ emails received last night server got
full, again..

Have you noticed that the press is dropping the missile theory and giving
more play to mechanical failure?

Also, so far only 3 of the four engines have been located?
No official word on operating status, pictures greatly limited..

No bomb residues found on Cargo hold door or baggage with primary detection
system..No word on physical condition of baggage.as to possible blast type
damage/Melting etc. TV pic indicate little damage.

I'm begining to suspect/think that the door popped open (cause to be
determined), and debris or baggage may have caused an engine failure..then a
fuselage failure..result air crash.
or
Just the door opening and ripping back up and over the top behing the
passenger bubble would severe the lines to the CVR and more..same result air
crash..

B-747-#153 was a old airplane and like the "wonderful one horse shay" it
broke on its judgement day, too.

see the poem "The Wonderful One Horse Shay" H.W. LongFellow, I think?
How Many more B-747 are there...flying.... of the 1088+ produced..
Now do you see why I really really want to know about the engines...
The one nearest the cargo hold door has sucked in baggage, door parts and it
think a Crew person on different occasions..

Today Friday, on a short TV interview, I walked the viewing public thru your
page on the TWA:800 (B-747 Problem) page. And Anna Warman's in flight
emergency page, I recommended viewing ahead of boarding B-747s.

I have NO Repeat No indications of mid 1970's FAA forward cargo Door mods/
Requirements for this plane. I do have an indication that early in the
1970's this plane was refitted internally only (unknown us/offshore Repair
Station or IRAN?) from freighter to passenger config.

Also rumored from some Southern Air Transport Pilots, that this plane was
operated for Iran by Evergreen, under Iranian registration. Evergreen has
the refit capability needed for Jumbos..Remember they flew the Shah out of
Iran in the late 1970's.
------------------------------
I do not have in evidence a D class inspection overhaul certificate for this
plane. As would have been required in 1991..

I do not have in evidence a complicance inspection certificate for the 1990
Post UAL/811, PanAm/103 cargo door modfication FAA Requirement.

This story does not paint a very good picture of our (US/FAA) airworthiness
inspection system..Too much stuff was forgotten, misfiled, never generated,
left uninspected or undone on this aircraft..

PS,
I've been reviewing the PanAm 103 data in light of this crash/your notes,
the evidence of a bomb there, I feel is too slim.
I had never looked at the evidence of a bomb in that case..

And essentially, we the US sent a squadron of fighter/bombers to attack a
foreign country based on that miniscule piece...

Your Over all B-747 documentation is coming along very well, I referred
the Press from NewsDay and Time/Warner to your page..several times this
last week, and used it 8/13/96 in a online/air interview with a local TV
station..

I think that you have made a convert out of me, re:PanAm103 I "Now" am
sure it was not a bomb..almost all of the evidence/testing was not done by
our labs (FBI/NTSB/Boeing), and the disruption pattern of the aircraft is
too much like a series of events starting with a door loss..

They have the 4th engine, and apparently all engines have been transported
to P&W East Hartford, CT..The Media has not caught on to this in moving
the plane pieces this week that the engines went elsewhere..A Friend at
P&W called me concerning the engines, I use to be a DER for GE
Powerplants and now do alot of titanium related consulting in failure
analysis/prevention..If I go to P&W, I'll e-mail you..first..

No one is saying anything about the condition of the engines. The TV
(CNN) pic showed that the cowling was relatively intact, and the shape is
indicative (Fatter) of the later (>1988) type with Kevlar/Kinar internal
ballistic shielding. On close examination of the TV pics, I could not make
out any holes..And Definitely the front stages were intact..maybe broken
up inside..
-----
Also, My mail system is down "OverLoad"?? I try and have it back up this
week end..

I got a look at the TWA:800 engines today..all appeared to have spundown
normally prior to hitting the water...

Cargo Door inboard engine was missing the pylon, all the pylon bolts were
sheared off..But the engine/forward stages and bearings looked normal..The
cowling was smashed up pretty badly, but was not perforated..

No signs of injested materials in the forward stage...

The other three appeared unexploded (?) too..

No one at P&W had info on the retrieval locations for the four engines..

I'll try and e-mail or call you tomorrow..

I'm also on compuserve and you can get a message to me via the Aviation
Safety Institute mailto from Avition Charlie's pages..too.

Agree on the need for info on and the probable door condition..

Do you have info as to the completion (or noncompletion) of the 1990
directive on retrofit/rebuilding this door? for this particular aircraft??

I & ASI are info lacking here..If I get positive info I'll email it to you
asap.

Catching up 1300+ e-mails..
---------------
Probably a typo on my part the member of SAFE at pipeline.com a
little too fanatical for me but he is toning down in the newgroup..

not understood, newsgroup There is no newsgroup what address is 4ue...? No in alt.disaster.aviation
either.
-----------------------------------------------------

Also, door had two ADs, not one, and you are now saying from your source
that they had not been complied with on TWA 800?
-----------------------------------------------------
I/ASI officially cannot verify compliance with the ADs for this plane from
sources at TWA. And we are having problems with the conversion to passenger
configuration documentation too...The NTSB (FBI?) has closed many files from
public access on an investigative basis..
----------------------------------------------------
Implications/repercussions/consequences of this amateur sleuthing solution
are immense. Death, money and power in large issue will shift.
Six years of frustration are beginning to lift. Ridicule, scoff, ignore,
it's been tough. And you had suspicions all alone. Good for you.
-----------------------------------------------------
The B-747-100 is a good aircraft over all yes there are problems, worse no
one took actions during the early stages, when incidents could have given us
some insight into this problem..

Hopefully, we will correct the current problems, start grounding aircraft
rather than writing reports..

And begin a predictive action program for new planes like the B-777, and
pick up where we should be on the 757/767's too...

ASI's John Galipault "ExAnte Facto Uno" get to the heart of the matter,
about 1974. He tried for many years to get actions on the cargo hold door
problem, and considered the post PanAm103 AD not enough..


Have you looked at the SDR Service directive report systems at landings.com,
this used to be ACRO harvard:

See: www.landings.com/_landings/pages/search_sdr.html#indexes

This plane (B-747-100/153 under went a major, but not "D" class overhaul
nov-dec 1992 Records before that are scarce...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: B-747 N93119 SRDs

1:MCI - DURING OP-16, FOUND CRACK IN LEFT WING AT FRONT SPAR RIB
SUPPORT BRACE, OUTBOARD SIDE OF INBOARD STRUT SUPPORT RIB, WS
670. INSTALLED NEW ANGLE PER SRM 51-10-01. TOTAL AIRCRAFT TIME
80230. TOTAL CYCLES 14687.

2:MCI - DURING OP-16, FOUND TWO CRACKS, EACH APPROXIMATELY FOUR
INCHES, VERTICALLY AT CABIN STATION 300, FORMER FRAME WEB,
STRINGER 24 LEFT. REPAIRED PER SRM 53-10-04, FIGURE 15. TOTAL
AIRCRAFT TIME 80230. TOTAL CYCLES 14687.

3:MCI - DURING OP-16, FOUND CORROSION ON LEFT WING LEADING EDGE
FRONT SPAR WEB, ILES 706, ABOVE LOWER FRONT SPAR. INSTALLED
REPAIR PER ARA 6413 AND DRAWING 691U0103. TOTAL CYCLES 14687.

4:MCI - DURING OP-16, FOUND CRACKED FASTENER IN UPPER AND LOWER
FRONT SPAR VERTICAL FLANGE INTO FUEL TANK, FSSI 636 TO FSSI 675.
REPLACED FASTENERS PER ARA 6415 AND ARA 6226. TOTAL CYCLES 14687.

5:MCI - DURING OP-16, FOUND CRACK APPROXIMATELY .5 INCH LONG IN
UPPER DECK FORMER FRAME FS 500, STRINGER 8 RIGHT, AT STRINGER
CUTOUT. REPAIRED PER ARA 6221. TOTAL AIRCRAFT TIME 80230. TOTAL
CYCLES 14687.

6:MCI - DURING OP-16, FOUND CRACK 1 INCH LONG IN RIB SUPPORT ANGLE,
INSIDE TANK AT WS 679, STRINGER 26, AFT OF FORWARD INBOARD
CORNER OF NR 2 PYLON. REPAIRED PER ARA 6250 AND DRAWING
112U5025, SHEET 1. AIRCRAFT TOTAL TIME 80230. TOTAL CYCLES 14687.

7:
-----------------------------------------------------------
AND I have a severe problem with this SDR report from Feb 1994..

Service Difficulty Report

ATA Code : 7200
Aircraft Manufacturer : BOEING
Aircraft Model : 747131
Aircraft Serial No. : 20083
Powerplant Manufacturer : GE (Problem Area Engines)
Powerplant Model : CF645A2 (This is the correct GE retro fit
type)
Difficulty Date : 27 February 1994
Operator Desig. : TWAA
A/C N Number : 93119
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Later in 1995 with no notice of change:
Aircraft Model : 747131
Aircraft Serial No. : 20083
Powerplant Manufacturer : PWA (These are what went in to the ocean)
Powerplant Model : JT8D7A
Difficulty Date : 25 August 1995
Operator Desig. : TWAA
Operator Type : Air Carrier
A/C N Number : 93119
ATH - FLT 880 - DURING CRUISE, SHUT DOWN NR 4 ENGINE, SN 4178, ENGINE
TOTAL TIME: 78,763 HOURS; 13,798 CYCLES. CHECK C-2 - 10-19-94 - MCI.
(= were these engines installed nov-1994??? no available records.)
Where did these engines come from? They were 21 years old (78,763hr/3700Hr/yr)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
back to 27 feb 1994 SDR
Preceeding Procedure : Other
Nature : Warning Indication
Stage of Flight : Cruise

Discrepancy/Corrective Action: =TWO engines shut down)

ATH - FLT 881 - DURING CRUISE, NR 1 AND NR 4 ENGINES SPOOLED DOWN.
NR 1 AND NR 4 ENGINE RESTART WAS NORMAL. CHECKED OPERATION OF
FUEL VALVE, FUEL BOOST PUMPS. DRAINED ENGINE FUEL FILTERS, BLED
FUEL CONTROLS AND INSPECTED PS4 LINES, ALL CHECKED NORMAL.
PERFORMED GROUND OPERATIONAL RUNUP AND ENGINES CHECKED
NORMAL. CHECK C-4B, 2-1-94, JFK.

Part Name : ENGINES
Part Condition : SPOOLED DOWN
Part/Defect Loc. : NR 1/4
Overhaul : X
Submitter Code : Carrier
District Office : Central US office #05
Aircraft Type : 12501 lbs. and over weight class
Monoplane Low Wing
Powered with 4 Engines
Engine Type : 750 HP and over Turbofan/Turbojet Bypass Engine

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, in May 1994
Service Difficulty Report

ATA Code : 3810
Aircraft Manufacturer : BOEING
Aircraft Model : 747131
Aircraft Serial No. : 20083
Difficulty Date : 24 May 1994
Operator Desig. : TWAA
A/C N Number : 93119
Preceeding Procedure : None
Nature : Other
Stage of Flight : Insp/Maint

Discrepancy/Corrective Action: (: how much other damage was done?)

JFK - DURING MODIFICATIONS TO THE CABIN WHILE IN HANGAR, THE LT
POTABLE WATER TANK UPPER POLAR CAP ERUPTED UPWARD,
PENETRATING THE CABIN FLOOR AND PSU AREA ON CEILING AT STA 980
TO 984. REPAIRS TO DAMAGED AREA WERE MADE AND THE AIRCRAFT WAS
RETURNED TO SERVICE. INVESTIGATION INDICATES THE MOST PROBABLE
CAUSE WAS THE TANK BECAME OVERPRESSURIZED DUE TO A
MALFUNCTION IN THE AIR COMPRESSOR SWITCH, MFG PN 1G216, AND
THE RELIEF VALVE, MFG PN 524-6D-45, SETTING WAS ABOVE THE 50 PSIG
MAXIMUM BECAUSE OF A LOOSE ADJUSTMENT LOCKING NUT. A FLEET
CAMPAIGN HAS BEEN INITIATED FOR RELIEF VALVE PRESSURE CHECKS
AND REPLACEMENTS WILL BE OF A NEW VALVE DESIGN, MFG PN
RV05-361. TOTAL CYCLES 15,653. (= 680 cycles/yr)

Part Name : VALVE
Manufacture Part Number : 5246D45
Part Condition : MALFUNCTIONED
Part/Defect Loc. : LT POT WATER
Part Total Time : 85722 ( = 3730hr/yr??)
Overhaul : X
Submitter Code : Carrier
District Office : Central US office #05
Aircraft Type : 12501 lbs. and over weight class
Monoplane Low Wing
Powered with 4 Engines


I agree the powers that be are driving the public announcements away from
the truth and at media went into left field in the next stadium..

Watch out for wanting the door senario too much, you have done a great job
in aligning the facts..Keep biulding the order trail that you have been
putting up..

We all desparately need the analysis of the Cargo door, and it's at the FBI
labs in Washinton, DC..

When I was in East Hampton, NY, I was carefully toured at the things the ???
wanted me to see..I'm a little infamous concerning the announcements of the
NTSB and I'm sure the they do not want to be upstage by a 3rd party...As
such There were no picture/reports/Video tapes of the cargo door available
to me.."all that stuff was sent to Washington" was the response to my
inquiry...They got too busy to tour me for very long and I was told that I
would have to leave and come back in several weeks when things were less
hectic..

I went to P&W to look at the engines at Pratt's request not the NTSB..P&W
promised to pick up expenses, but my time was free..

An interested party to copy/e-mail is US Senator Kay Bailey Hutchinson (TX)
at times she heads the US Senate commerce committee that the NTSB reports
to. She is a pilot (Jets) and very practical /interested..

WE (ASI/I) have been trying desparately to determine if the doors on the
TWA:800 were modified..We have been unable to find a copy (hard/electronic)
of a AD compliance statement for N39119 and any record of modification of
N740PA's cargo hold doors...I'm also trying to find and corporate Documents
related to fleet wide (TWA) door mods and a governmental listing of all
completed/approved Door mods for any N numbered B-747.. I Don't think that
these documents exist..

Our US Aviation Maintainence Records Stink, But I have known this for a
while. In 1989 ASI proposed a national Internet (ASCII) based commercial
aviation parts/maintence reporting system...The FAA (then HeadLess) Didn't
buy it..The GAO said this was needed as part of a centralized
maintainence/inspection program. Note that the military has something like
this for all military aircraft (but not all Government aircraft) I think
that you need to include the airbourne command post B-747s in your warnings...

This Saterday, I get to look at 2 Evergreen Air B-747-200 Freighters and 1
Southern Air Transport B-747-100 combo in maintence hangers at SAT at
Rickenbacker Airport outside Columbus, Ohio.. The SAT B-747-100 was part of
the original order for Eastern with the TWA:800 plane..It's Boeing
Production Number 213 (I think) Yes I'll look for Door mods and cockpit
indication systems mods too..Also I'm going over the belly tank strut/frame
crack weld repair weld that were completed on these airplane in the last 5
years for signs of weld /stress induced cracking..in structural components..

First Check out the AP/NY Times on Explosive Devices found THey apparently
found PETN on pieces that were recovered as early as 3 (7/20) days after the
crash?? Two (2) days later the FBI's field lab declared that they had
Detected PETN on a part of the RH Inboard wing, that day the FBI recanted
and even though there have been many statements to the fact that no verified
explosives residue were found; now the FBI said that they withheld this fact
awaiting nore forensic evidence..

The Bomb was stated as being in passenger rows 17-28, But "Senior Officials"
have stated that they are not ready to declare that the crash was the result
of a bomb.. and are awaiting more forensic evidence.. (Of Something??)

Who lied When to Whom?? Who is lying now? Who is telling the truth?

The Local paper "The Columbus Dispatch" buried the summary of the NYT
article inside the paper..awaiting comfirmation?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I got your message on door mods,...

Maybe you've started to guess what I do..

The Aviation Safety Institute is a big interest, but I do consultant
inspection work for several of the airline insurance agencies as a third
party oversight agency...

Several of the bigger insurance agencies are very worried:

1. B-747 aging.. Increasing
2. B-747 maintainence...Effectiveness decreasing..
3. Warsaw Pack cap on payouts removed - See DOT/FAA announcement 8/1/96
4. Replacement parts problems..
5 Unreported/Undetected theft of good parts /replaced with bad..
6. Fuel Quality fraud - The FBI has a 100 man organized crime unit in this area.

Years ago..
You punched out of a jet that had 1 bolt overtightened or badly heat treated
in a maintainence system far superior to any commercial airfleet in the
world, with the possible exception of JAL's..

A samerai fanatic runs JAL's maintainence group and he reports to another
samerai,,type...NO Excuses are accepted/tolerated in that operation..I think
that their "D" class rebuilt Boeings maybe more airworthy than new ones of
the same type..
And their Airworthiness Body (Japan) is very conscience of maintainence of
aircraft..When I first saw their (JAL's) engine rebuild facility I was
working for GE, and quite frankly I returned home to begin an inhouse
campaign to copy/lease many JAL engine insection systems..They were that
much better than GE's.

Anyway the US Military inspection program starts with the nut/bolts makers
and follows the aircraft through to the salvage yards..and there still is a
lot of fraudulent operations there.

Do you remember that the Air Safety Act of 1988 made maintainence fraud of
aircraft a federal felony with a mandatory sentance? Several dozen aviation
managers from TWA/NorthWest were arrested and eventually found guilty, but
no fines have been paid, and not one person has ever served a day of the
required sentance(s)..And these were from our better operations..

The FAA's 1995 Precrash review of ValuJet should have resulted in several
inditements of ValuJet managers..The FAA decided to "work with VJ", and our
legislators wanted the past DOT IG fired..She was also affiliated with the
Aviation Safety Institute as an intern years ago, and is a Jet rated pilot
and an A&P on top of all that..Not too many ladies fit this bill for that
position...or have her intensity in aviation..
Her group used many ruses to get past airport security, to the point that
the newer luggage/baggage inspection systems were defeated daily.. This was
reported to DOT Sec. Pena~ on a monthly basis..and the WhiteHouse comment
(11/95 & 5/96) was to go easier on the airlines..She Resigned...

I'm starting to ramble..

On welding the B-747 cargo doors shut, YES!!
but find/qualify a welder for this operation..

I recommend Using only 1 welder and 1 inspector and do all 1093? B-747s and
those at Boeing on the assembly line, too.

In general the B-747 structural weld repairs have been ineffective and of
low / questionable quality on most of the commercial jets, I've looked at in
the past 2 years..

There are no US FAA requirements to qualify Aircraft REPAIR welders..or
inspectors..
See the FARs on "Other non crew airmen", and I'm sure that most operator's
inspectors look more at the paperwork than the airplane..


I know that you are disgusted as much As I with the recent turn of events
driven by The Powers that Be. One Ray of Hope: Senator Bailey-Hutchinson
refused an FBI request (Presidential) to direct the NTSB to turn over
theTWA:800 investigation to the FBI..And maybe a second ray..no one is
really saying that it was an explosion.

I'm sure that what we are seeing is the political drive to have the Public
demand that the FBI run this investigation..I will agree that the FBI has
much better lab facilities than the NTSB who has little..But the FBI has no
record in the investigation of aircraft failures since the conversion of the
CAB into the FAA many years ago..

I really wished that there had been better news coverage of the cargo door
recovery..I have reviewed today/yesterday many minutes of V-tape concerning
the cargo door recovery and do not have frame 1 of the inside of the
door..And some of a read door mis IDed as the forward door. At East Hampton
3 weeks ago, I wasn't allowed to review picture/V-tape of the door which had
been sent to Wash DC for extensive testing..Now I cannot find anyone who
admits to seeing the door.

Also, I had an e-mail concerning the recovery of the engines that indicated
that 1 engine recovered was missing the FAN stage.. I don't have anything on
this at all and I have access to all of the local TV section's newsfeed on
tape..

At P&W last week the engines were nicely disassembled, parts laid out for
review and the reports/parts did not indicate and major fan or bearing
damage..of the type most likely due to large Item injestion.

Suppose that instead of a rudder problem, this is an engine control
problem, where an engine goes into full reverse while crusing..

The aircraft flips over and almost all control is lost..

World Wide this has happen 11 or more times over the last 15 years,
leaving a similar relatively small narrow crater from the 300+mph almost
vertical, but upside down flight attitude impact..

This is a big reason why the FAA ordered thrust reversers, wire closed,
bolted closed and removed from the enines of B-737s..

To Check for how the aviation industry has complied; on your next trip to
the airport go to the observation area and watch how many B-737s back away
from the gate unassisted by other ground vehicles..With a deactivated
thrust reverser it must be magic....



Today investigators ruled out electrical problems (pumps?) as being a
cause of ignition of the center fuel tank..Thet keep ruling out the
obscure and bringing in more implausible causes..

So howabout main fuel tank disruption and ignition from a forward cargo
door side inboard engine uncontained failure, wing tank/cell rupture?

Primary Cause a failure of the forward cargo door latching mechinism..

There appears to be a mystery surrounding the condition of the engine
nearest this door..
Did baggage from the forward cargo bay get ejected from the airplane and
sucked into this engine..

Was it recovered last?,
Was it recovered intact as claimed?
Was the forward fan section damaged while rotating?
Why did NTSB person Francis discount the engines as being a source of
explosion..
Why has the recovery locations of the engines not been made public?
Was the Cargo Door inboard engine found at a different location from the
main wreckage?
Are the P&W 20 plus year old engines as installed in 1994 the same ones as
were on this aircraft when it exploded?

What Does the recently turned up Mysterious Photograph show?..
Can the date/time be verified by examination of the photograph.
Has the negative been turned over to the NSTB for image enhancement?.

I got a look at 3 old B-747s at Rickernbacker AirPort here in Columbus,
Ohio,over the weekend..there were owned by Southern Air Transport and
Evergreen Air..

A Picture (Evergreen Air) made the page of the local paper, but I'm just a
shadow by the cargo door under the plane..

All were passenger planes converted to freighters, all were 20 + years
old..Many takeoffs at full weight and some questionable? Plus weight. All
were brought back from overseas, from AirLingus, Iberia..but were only
operated shortly by these operators. None had been through a "D" Class
rebuild. All carried tons of old wires in the airframe from rewire
jobs..And lots of Interior paint, and a feul cell in a fuel cell must add a
lot of weight, too..A Call to Ray Sharkey (NDT Inspection Chief) at
AirLingus - Boston, indicated that they dumped the plane they had owned; as
unsuited for their passengers..What ever that means..They owned it from
august 1989 to march 1990..I think they changed out the engines and sold it..

All three planes had wear marks on the cargo door hatch pins: about 100 degs
of circumference. No noticable stress marks on the paint arround the cargo
doors..
All three had never been fitted with the cockpit indicating system for a
positive the "Door is Latched" indication..One plane (SAT's) had the latch
mod, but No paper work indicating who did it and if it was accepted..

All three had cracking and repair cracking in structure welds at the wing to
fuselage area..Lots of Corrosion some repaired some not..

One AirCraft ( had two crago door incidents logged, failure to
seal on take off /return to airport and close door and take off again..No
passengers Just freight.. incidents: 7/1988 TelAvi, IS & 4/1991 Jakarta IN,
attributed to ground crewmen.

My client for this work is " who are Aviation Insurance
brokers, a couple of weeks ago they were worried about B-747s and I got alot
of support to look at planes that they covered..Now I'm getting the word to
layoff B-747s..And some inspections have been contracted to others.. I get
to do DC-9/B727s being rebuilt by AirBourne Express, Wilmington, OH..They
(ABE) do a damn good job: nothing ever interesting to look at just paper
work..a little more money..

Also, I've had several Posts that never made the NG...Or lasted long if they
got there..I wonder If the "Powers that Be" want this one to die out..

You note popped in while I was writing this..

The AP Photo of the 3rd engine recovered (Fan stage Missing? or Removed) in
East Hampton,NY is not the same as the CNN Footage of this engine being
recovered , I'm sure that the govt supplied this photo to AP & Others. The
Third engine recovered is referred to as the #3 engine by the Press and I'm
sure that this is not the Cargo Door Inboard Engine..The P&W guy's from E
Hartford CT say that the engines spun down partway without power prior to
the damage to them..

In 1986, I wrote an article published in many aviation and
inspection journals that indicated that I was concerned as the FAA
reported accidents for major aircraft were escalating to 1 major plane per
month..

I forgot that the FAA is not the only airworthiness body in the world.
There are several major counterparts..Most of the accident reporting
systems are not linked together and much information has never been cross
recorded. Much has been lost..

10 years later:

With the "Miasma" arrising from the nonRecords and unInformation
surrounding the TWA:800 B-747-100#153 aircraft which should make us all
wonder..With all these computers where are the records?

For a chilling report of those aircraft reported by the FAA: see the FAA
Office of Accident Investigation Information Reports Page:
"www.faa.gov/AVRG/AAI/iirform.htm"
Whew! I hope that's right..IF not, It should be easy to get to with the
new search/site function at the FAA's Home Page..

Interesting, but very scary:
You Said:
I believe the high power transmitting coupled with transponder codes
triggers door opening control system. I want to be proven wrong on that one
but the evidence is there, it happens too often to be coincident. Which is
why hindsight is so good, a pattern emerges only after time.
and:
New clue, floor beams go down for door opening to relieve pressure and would
go up for bomb overpressure. No report on beam status either, as usual. <<<
RIGHT
=======
The Late Founder of the Aviation Safety Institute, John Galipault thought
that by recording and analyzing the little incidents that the big ones that
could happen could be identified..

This was First printed in January 1974 a year after Eastern Flt 401:

The Aviation Safety Institute did not emerge in isolation. The events
leading to its formation included a series of unfortunate accidents that
resulted in serious injuries and a significant loss of life. As the friends
and relatives of the accident victims then and now, began to search for
explanations and to seek steps to insure that these tragedies would not be
repeated, they soon learned that -- despite the existence of governmental
agencies and companies encompassing some aspect of airline safety -- no
truly objective and independent organization existed to identify, address,
and work intensively for the elimination of the root causes of accidents and
incidents.

Accordingly, The Aviation Safety Institute was established to fill
this gap.

ASI is supported by many interested persons, but not by aircraft or airline
operators etc., the insurance industry has been ASI's biggest supporter for
many years, and ASI's speciality is 3rd party oversight..

Anyway see:
http://news.chapman.edu/students/tkrell/planes/ a lot of Boeing stuff there
and see the link to the Aviation Safety section,
-or- Why the cheapest seat on the plane is the one next to the cargo door.

Also Hull Loss Stats..

Barry,

I 'm getting frustrated with this it's like the weather, everyone talks
about it but no one is doing anything about it..

Again, when I start to review the history of an aircraft there are too many
precursors of the problem...The B-747 Cargo Doors should have been fixed 20
years ago and the assembly at the factory modified to eliminate this..At
Boeing the engineers were worried in 1975-76 but nothing much was done,
people died, more died and the government made an announcement of a new
requirement 1990, not too many listened.. I got worried in 1984, worked like
heel to the the Aviation Safety act of 1988 passed into law and relatively
nothing is being done, the problems of 1980 and earlier are still here today.

Our aircraft equipment records system really stinks...even the Car makers
are better.

PS:
PA103's explosion analysis stinks, SemTEX, C-3, C-4 all leave very little
residue and less; if partially confined..300 Gms of SemTEX would not leave a
heavy layer of soot on anything if ignited..I've seen it and others used to
explosively weld large sheets of steel and aluminum together and there is
almost no residue...Very little detectable under the Electron Microscope..
Also they did not reconstruct the aircraft 3 dimensionally they only laid
the part out on the floor and guessed as to how things were disrupted. No
Stain/stress analysis done and The Welding Center in the UK is one of the
world leaders in this area..

Tonight at apx 10:45pm EST; US President Clinton promised the US and the
World the best and finest Nondestructive Testing technology for a aircraft
baggage inspection system to be deployed at all airports within the United
States and at all airports/airlines having flights leaving for the US to
protect American Citizens from terrorist attacks at home and abroad..


A short time ago a Presidential Commission was announced having to do with
the implementation of improved aircraft freight/baggage inspection.
Earlier in June of this year, I sent a letter to ASNT's Executive Director
Don Hastings and phoned the ASNT President urging them to have the ASNT
Board of Directors, prepare for another FAA Safety Summit, with a proposal
on inspector training that would have been worked on jointly with the FAA
and others, like ATA, AIA, PRI etc.. prior to the next Safety Summit.

After the summer meeting of the ASNT Board of Directors in July, I met
with Don Hastings and learned that ASNT had not officially considered this
action. Then after being informed by the WhiteHouse Staff of the
announcement for the formation of this Presidential Commission; I again
wrote ASNT, urging "that ASNT pledge the full technical resources and
support of the Society" for this new Presidential Commission.
Sadly Don Hastings has left ASNT..(see "www.asnt.org")

ASNT, through its members many years ago, was able to support the needs of
the US in the area of Aviation Safety by demonstrating in US Federal Court
that it was practical to x-ray all baggage being loaded on board an
aircraft..The US NDT industry responded and all Major US Airports were
equiped with X-ray units inside of 90 days..
This changed the way that we fly today..

And astonishingly,today: years later, most aircraft freight placed on
board US based aircraft are not inspected by even that most basic NDT
Methodology:Visual Testing..
The DOT/FAA IG's agents were able to slip through airport security on an
almost daily basis..They "did not feel challenged by the audit exercise".

At the time of this historic demonstration of increased aviation safety
through the use of NDT, ASNT was promoting a new Idea,,The multi level
voluntary personnel training and certification program known as
"SNT-TC-1A".

But even today almost 30 years later, those aviation security personnel in
the US, using basic to very high level NDT systems are not required to be
certified or are regulated under any system remotely resembling the
SNT-TC-1A program.

Other National agencies outside the US have recognized this need and the
Canadian Society for NDT has long campaigned for an international system
of compentency testing for these persons characterized in the US by the
former DOT/FAA Inspector General,as "Minumum Wage Earners with little
training and less incentative".

This Must Change ! "The Best and Finest Technology" will not work without
the best and finest personnel training and certification program...

More Shocking still is the fact that there is no mandatory US Central
Certification Program for persons engaged in any aircraft inspection..
ASNT is trying to implement its ASNT Central Certification Program (ACCP)
that might have met this need had the ACCP been mandatory.

The US Airline Industry recognized this need and many years ago developed
and agreed to a voluntary program called ATA-105..This filled another gap
that ASNT's programs had not filled..Many other US societies and
government agencies have implemented their own clones of ASNT original
program..One Central US Agency with a generic adaptable plan for all would
have been much better..I think that the US would have a better place in
the world economy today; if this had come to pass..

And maybe UAL811, PanAm103, TWA800 and many other disasters of all types
would not have happened..(see "www.corazon.com")

Yesterday in NewYork the Jury began deliberation in the trial of those
accused in the December 1994, passenger compartment bombing of Philippine
Air plane which killed one passenger and blew out a soccar ball sized hole
in the adjacent fuselage..The plane landed under emergency conditions but
safely...

The NY Times reported that in the NTSB Computer Simulation of TWA:800,
the explosion was confined to a small area on the right hand side of the
aircraft, that all of the material ejected; (starting with the cargo door
?) came from a small confined area above and infront of the wing..Remember
the pictures of UAL flight 811? An unnamed explosives expert not employed
by the government, or the NTSB.. stated that "we sill do not have that one
piece yet, that would let you call it (the destruction of TWA:800) a bomb.
(Who was this Masked Man?)

CBS News in an exclusive interview with another unnamed official announced
that traces of yet another explosive RDX were found in a rearward part of
TWA:800's cabin..(Tonto?)

Let's see: We had mention of FuGas. TNT, Nitrogylcerin, PETN, and Now
RDX..any others ??? in the Cargohold, First Class areas, Galley,, row 24
and now the rear of the aircraft; and an outside burst by a missile..

Could this be indicative of:

1. A unique multiple mixture explosive using all of the above; deployed in
several sections of the aircraft...
It must have been a suicide squad..possibly a kamakazi? !

2. A true terrorist attack...Anything is possible...
But No one is getting credit for it. Did they died in the bombing?
(See Suicide Squad above)

3. Too sensitive an initial test..Picking up traces of WWII, or the
Faulkland Island conflict held in the Atlantic Ocean at earlier
Dates.

4. Not quite as sensitive a test as number 3, and are picking up traces of
explosives from the millions of rounds of Small Arms ammo/weapons that
the NRA claims had been blown up in the Atlantic Ocean in the
government's effort to reduce the overall storage of small arms that
might fall into criminal hands.

5. Attack? or other actions by alien beings, possibly very large ones who
tried to mate with their earthier counterpart the B-747. These beings
were nitrate exhaling..thus accounting for the large variety of
residues found..they are not of earthly origin..(Residue & Aliens)

99 A foulup in the test lab and premature announcements by publicity
seekers or just plain stupid people in high places..


or..
A government or other driven refusal to review the facts,,
We the public have been told tetrabytes of bomb related info,
but little concerning the real mechanical status of this aircraft.
(see www.corazon.com)


With all the publicized explosive evidence isn't it strange that the NTSB
is still in charge. That most or all of the residues, etc. for the now
many types of explosives haven't stood up in the real testing lab.. That
with the FBI with the "pedal to the metal" and the "brakes locked up ready
to go" hasn't found the little bit of evidence required to allow them a
"Green Light Holeshot" to conduct the investigation...
Wasn't the government a little eager in Atlanta, RubyRidge, Waco.. too?

Is there a possiblity that a criminal act hasn't been committed here ?

If you feel that the public has a right to know: write Bill Clinton at
president@whitehouse.gov and Al Gore too..vice-president@whitehouse.gov
ask them for the truth.

And with all this ValuJet is promising to start operations Again..
--

Agreed on unrecoverable bodies, except probably did not go through engine,
just widely dispersed in large areas - floated away, JAWs got'em etc..
We desparately need the real damage assessment of this engine..I hate to
think the P&W is involved in a conspiracy, but they need money to stay in
business, but the recent administration's attention on Iraq appears to
indicate that almost anything is possible in a election year.
---------------------------
Holes in the back of the seat "reports state that the (A)reported Steel?
seat liner was pierced in two areas of approximately 2" dia...Very early
seats did have steel liners, but after the FAA/airlines did away with
urethane foam about 1980, I thought the liners went to a glass reinforced
plastic type..But remember that this is an old airplane with a questionable
conversion to passenger type..Old seats could have been retained and
recovered. or purchased from a reconditioner and installed..

There appears to be a possible systematic removal of more useable (valuable)
parts of this aircraft in preparation for it's removal from service.

However I feel that it unlikely that a coke can or most other interior
allowed small items could be propelled fast enough by any chemical explosive
to develop the energy required to penetrate the seat..Remember that there is
a small amount of padding over the liners and this acts like the padding
under your flak vest (Remember?) to disperse the projectile energy and
reduce that chances of penetration...But an interior piece of the engine
could do (and Has Done) this very easily (Delta's MD-88 in Fla 2 months
ago). Uncontained engine parts have velocities that often exceed 4000
ft/sec..like flying in to 20mm cannon shells..
-------------------------
On cargo doors there are several of the early 100/200/300 forward door types
95+ percent are the standard type as you have depicted and are involved with
this aircraft..top hinge type..
The 7 planes (old) that I have looked at in the last 45 days were all of
this type..
But some UPS/AirBourne/FlyingTigers freight B-747/100/200/300s have a custom
door to allow larger freight containers on wheels to be rolled from a moving
platform into a separate interior forward lower deck and retained there.
ASI has no incidents of any type associated with these doors..Mechanism
moves door inward and upward for loading, on closing drops downward and
moves outward to form seal..ASI records show less than 50 doors of this type
produced (Boeing). but there are several after market makers.

Why was this cargo door and the new door type on the B-777 developed if
there were no problems with the old doors?..These are very expensive items
$1+ million more than the old style doors.



A coke can Even at 400knts does not have enough kinetic energy to penetrate
seats but at 200kts should produce a big dent in steel type or crack in
glass reinforced plastic type..

Passenger Whiplash injury possible causes:

1. 300+ knts deceleration when main cabin section hits the water..
Some Passengers have time to put their head down and cervical
compression type injuries are found in decreasing numbers toward the
rear of the aircraft...

2. 200+ knts deceleration when nose rips off (up and to the right)
Most passengers have cervical tension (typical Whiplash) type
injuries reguardless of passenger locations..

3. ?????

99. Bomb blast inside cabin..
Many passengers have tension type cervical injuries in a pattern
radiating outward from the bomb epicenter.

This is why that unrelased computer model of the crash injury distrubution
is so important..Nothing like this was done for PanAm103 and that
investigation stinks..

--------------------------------
: Agreed..
JBS: a mysterious crash of an early model 747 has occurred. No cause is
satisfactorily explained. That is enough to ground all 747s immediately.
: This should have been done in 1976...

:
This is what the FAA is for...Shut them down Now! Lock/weld/glue the door shut..

Now remember the NTSB reports to Who?
The US Senate Commerce Committee their main concern is the effect on
the US trade deficit of any restriction on the US Aviation
Industry..

The June/96 redirection of the FAA from its old dual role of regulating and
promoting the US Aviation Industry has caused many to leave..As they Feel
that the NEW directives concerning Aviation Safety are ineffective..Or will
hinder their regulatory / investigative operations greatly..

JBS:
If it happens again, and soon, the election will be affected. Clinton takes
the blame for Dept of Trans not telling the FAA to obey the NTSB
recommendation to weld doors shut. The NTSB did not issue recommendation?
Throw the bums out will be response.

:Agreed, but statistically Pres. Clinton is safe, it will be 21 months
before the risk of this happening again gets great, then the President gets
a chance to be a hero by grounding the planes/fixing the problems..There
will be close to 350 25+ year old B-747s at that time..Many of these are in
the US Commercial Airfleet..Remember the President will take the risk of
this with US all by flying airforce 1, Even if the doors were fixed 5 years
ago (Unconfirmed At Kelly AFB)the public will never know..And He will Get
(justify) a NEW B-777 $300 million AF#1 plane to fly..It's been
quoted..That's the plane only..Special engines are still in development...

Remember that DOT Sectretary Pena~ will tender his resignation to the
president at the end of the year, along with Hinson's resignation becoming
effective..Willie gets to choose a new Aviation "Dream Team".
---------------------
The plot of aircraft lost is starting to increase to an all time high rate..
The plot of net profit made by US airlines is inceasing at an all time high
rate..

I find this all a little more than scary...


Think about what happens when the cargo door /skin above lets go..a weak
area is created on right hand side with the opening there, the main floor
buckles on this side in an attempt to equalize stresses on this side as it
is in compression from the movement of the nose to the right..

If it was in tension it would split
(Aloha Plane deck buckled on initial opening side and split on the other)

And when the deck starts to buckle the nose is in movement back toward the
weak area..and up; as the lower deck/wing structure is much stiffer..than
the now open first class area with little to stiffen the aircraft fuselage
other than the dorsal cabling spine, which is relatively flexible..
(plane moves left and down in response speed drops dramatically, kind of
like opening one offset air brake)

>But once they look at cargo doors they can't fail to see the prime suspect
covered in blood,<

I'm willing to bet that this cargo door disappears,

just like the Davadian's front door at Waco the one the ATF said they were
fired upon; through. Which had only bullet holes from the outside on it, and
through some paper work foul up got sent to a trash incinerator facility...

Major Problem that door was a fireproof model and didn't burn..some reporter
dug it out of the post incenerating compacting system rejects..all bent up.
FBI photos of the door were also found waiting to be burned..

Also the cororner there (Waco,TX) let all of the bodies decompose and lost
the records too, said it was a refridgeration failure that went un noticed
for 30 days..And he was a friend of this administration too..Stinks in more
ways than one?....Right

I got back a day later from Continential in Houston,TX than I expected..

I can't factually answer the question about old B-747/100/200s with newer
doors, other than there are several types of other design cargo doors at a
much higher cost than the standard doors. Using common sense: all of the
problem cargo doors have been of the old out&up type, possibly some with the
required saftey modifications. I haven't been able to trace a single
incident in the Aviation Safety Institute's Monitor incident listing to a
B-747/300 or 400, and 100-200 series with a Inside and UP or other type
moving cargo door.

Re: B-747-300/400s there are very, very few of these flying under US
registery as they do not fit our financial flight schemes in the US as being
too costly to run even under lease programs..(and the US airlines had their
most profitable year in their history?)( I'll try and get a N registry break
down of these)

I expect to be at several NorthWest facilities this week and I'll try and
get a look at the Northwest KLM B-747-400s that KLM flys from Europe to
Japan, if any are on the Fields when I am.
-----------------
Also late next week I will go to Boeing to discuss risk assessments
(insurance ratings) for the B-777, fitted with GE engines, Phil Conduit;
Boeing's CEO may be (the 777 was his baby) in the meetings and there should
be some 747 savy engineers in this group,, although almost all of these guys
started with the B-757 production group about 15 years ago..The 747 was an
old design when thy go out of college..

There is a lot of rumor/fact concerning the air worthiness trials of the
B-777 being rushed, the public was told that this was not so..the insurance
industry (& me) has some other thoughts..When the first tail of a 777 comes
apart in mid air e-mail me, about the year 2004..The 777 tail assembly is
glued together.
------------------
RE: No response from Boeing:
I think that Boeing's management has decided to wait for the official "BOMB"
pronouncements to declare that they (Boeing Airplanes) are safe..
Most of my friends at Boeing have told me that "officially" the plane is
safe..I still ask "If Safe; why ever change the cargo door design to one
that is much more costly, there are many other area on this aircraft to
spend a million dollars.."
No answers other than the official one..
---------------
Re the letter to the President, copy Al Gore: he's heading up the Safety
Commission, and stress the need for a mandatory central nationally regulated
program of training and certification for both the aircraft and security
inspection personnel that meets international standards..

The Military Aircraft that you flew years ago were inspected by persons
recieving much more training in inspection technology with very regular on
the job testing, than any US airline. That plane was built in the same
factories as civilian planes, but with a government 3rd party inspector..And
you still had to punch out due to 1 bad bolt..right?
----------------
From the reports from the military airlift commands, and other support
groups, I fear that the government agency accountants have been running
these groups too, Little maintenance, no upgrades, not even an attempt at
compliance with the ADs that the FAA issues..FAA has no juridiction on these
airplanes..So our military didn't budget for changes..ie little done..No
insurance requirements here..

Strike/fighter/bomber aircraft are a totally different story..


I personally don't believe in the Aegis Missle theory, but review the last
lines, I saw the briefing footage on CNN, but it didn't register at that time..
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
Here's a clip from the 9/5/96 briefing:

"QUESTION: Sir, there was a report today on WCBS-TV that the missile
theory is still alive and well, that possibly a missile without exploding
passed right through and is somehow on the ocean floor. Your reaction to that?

FRANCIS: I would say that the three theories that we've talking about
almost since day one are still all out there.

QUESTION: Is there any possibility that an Aegis destroyer might have
been in the vicinity practicing some kind of naval maneuvers that you are
aware of?

FRANCIS: The admiral says he can answer that. So I will let him.

KRISTENSEN: There was an Aegis platform approximately 180 miles
away from this area on that evening. And they were not engaged in
any kind of air training or maneuvering.
__________________________________________________________________
: You can still loose a Hot One even if you aren't involved in:
"any kind of air training or maneuvering"
And Disarm the Warhead after launch,,right???
__________________________________________________________________
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
QUESTION: Mr. Francis, are debris fields two and three considered clean
enough that you have no intention of going back there any more. Are there any
more tasks for divers out there more than you've identified?

FRANCIS: We are rescanning those. We are also intending to scan somewhat
further to both the west and south in debris field three to make even more
certain that we haven't missed anything."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
Barry

This may be important in that are now looking in the area where the not much
mentioned Cargo Door was recovered from..

They have had a week, some storms delayed things..
What might they have found?
Were they looking for something specific?

I' can get anything out of the Boeing guys on the Cargo Door. It's kind of
disappeared from the system in the FBI labs...Several Attempts have been
made by Boeing to obtain access to the door or test reports on the door..and
the FBI hasn't release anything to Boeing or TWA..or the insurance companies
( My Clients )

Rumor: I have heard that the Government is going to offer TWA a (FREE??)
replacement B-747 (200?) as there is some contention that this (TWA:800)
aircraft is still the property of the US Government as it was ONLY "loaned"
to TWA as part of the airline subsidy program in 1978..If the Government
maintains this position do the insurance companies have to pay off?? or does
TWA get the other plane and the money, too???

Yes, I have heard this too..

At 08:13 AM 9/10/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Pilot keying mike is trigger on two door openings, 103 and 182, the exact
>time of keying, door comes off. Others may be exact time too, need data.
:
This should be retreivable from the CVR and FDR and I would guess about 3-5
minutes earlier than the HISSSss at the end..Possibly the mike key's the
door opening cycle just enought to get the door into the air stream, and on
a few events the door was ripped loose..This would introduce some degree of
variability into the timing inmterval of the Failure vs the Mike
Keying..None of these aircraft were/Are equiped with the new digital 128
channel FDRs.


>German TV had struct failure for 800 and dismissed by NTSB. Why? What was
>the struct failure the Germans thought?
:
I have heard rumors of this, I'll post it to the Newsgroup and see if there
are any factual responses


> Anyway, door openings is cause of 182 103 811 and 800, pilot keying mike
>is exact trigger for 182 and 103 and maybe 811 and 800 need data as to what
>was pilot doing at exact time of door openings.

> Now question is why does mike keying open door? John Barry Smith
: Old wires/bad connectors, typically this aircraft should have been
rewired at least twice..A common US practice is to leave much of the old
wire in place, and the airlines (financially) tolerate this added weight in
additional fuel cost..Sometimes during inservice repairs the old wires get
reused in new circuits..A little money saved this month can cost someone's
life next..year..

I talk with tomorrow AM, is the top Nondestructive Testing
Resource guy at the FAA's NJ Technical Center..Hopefully He might contribute
something..But I think that he wants to know what I know/think about
TWA:800..I'm now a firm believer in the Killer unfixed door problem..
>

There appears to be some large problems in the reporting of the truth
about TWA:800 and I need help in tracking down reports from the German
TV/Press that indicated that TWA:800's crash was the result of a
structural failure..

If anyone has any information on sources from outside the US on this type
of report concerning Structural or Engine failure of TWA:800 or any other
B-747 100/200 aircraft.

Please e-mail, me any information that you might have..

Also if you know of any internet location for pictures of any series
B-747, that show the forward cargo door open please e-mail me the URL..


"The gene pool could use a little chlorine."
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Yes I got most of this article Down to where i've put the "VVV", and yes the
SDRs indicate that there was a severe case of "Old Airplane" that is
tolerated in our US commercial aviation system, Too many cracks (fatique) in
the wing to body structural area..

On Fuel: I couldn't get the takeoff fuel load (the NTSB had sealed the
records), but from the NY fuel supplier this aircraft took on 75,000lbs it
doesn't hold much more than that..remember that it was making a
transatlantic flight, and was required to have a certain extra fuel load on
board..The Athens to NY, would have used 77,000 lbs..the plane took on
80,000 lbs there, and the design specs indicate a fuel capacity of
100,000lbs(?)..I'd be willing to bet that 90,000+lbs were on board as the
cost of fuel is much higher in Paris, France..

We have "lost" very few if any Boeing commercial aircraft to electrical
sparks igniting any fuel vapor in the last 25 years..(or to lightning)

The Pumps won't create sparks they are non metallic..
The Pump electrical motors are external to the fuel cells except:
Scavenger pump which is hydraulically driven with the fluid pump motor (28v
400Hz) outside of the fuel tank, too.
What is there to overheat the fuel? It must be heated up on some long
flights to pump it around the tank system for balance..This plane just took
off and was climbing under moderate throttle..The Engines have fuel
preheating systems that get the fuel up to temperature to vaporize easily
when injected into the hot section..Anyway, I don't think that the Flight
Engineer was moving fuel..

E4B Photo looks good..I'm trying to find out more about the Cargo doors
themselves..There are many retrofits by other than Boeing..Why if the
opening is the same size as it is on some of these; was the investment made
in design and installation of another type door..Also the airworthiness
certification apparently does not appear to cover the doors as a separate
issue other than when the mod was made in relation to an AD..

I posted a request for info on the Newsgroup..

Agreed on the ladder theory and other types of damages..to B-747 cargo doors..

Think about a fork truck resting it's forks on the lower edge of the door
while the ground crew pulls a skid off of the forks..I saw it happen..last
week at Rickenbacker Airport..I've asked to look at that plane again..

I've asked for several groups to look for pictures for B-747 cargo
doors..The freighter type door is different it is designed with the idea
that larger items are loaded from transporter vehicles, rather than baggage
being dropped off of a ramp. I'm trying to develop a catalog and timebase
for different door types..to figure out why the original doors were found to
be inadequete enough to warrant a new and much more expensive design..

I talked to the FAA Technical Cernter, today for about an hour on this and
have suggested that an inspection device be fabricated that fits into the
door and locks down on the locating holes/frame to check for squareness or
bends in the door to frame seal area..And that this be a priority for the
FAA to undertake an audit in the evaluation of inservice airworthiness of
the B-747s.

Talking with the maintence techs at Southern Air Transport their solution
for a bent door is to jack it (bend) back into place. I think that this
practice leaves residual stresses in the frame, and a tendency to bend a
different way under the inflight decompression or compression cycle metal
shifts that the airplanes undergo..Different type of bends and rebends might
be related to the difference between a climbing door release and a
descending door release failure.
---------------------
The FAA has released unofficially and will officially release a document
that indicates that the FAA inspectors are mainly only auditors and that
further training will be given to these guys (& ladies) in the techniques of
auditing..
This announcement will be made at the ATA Conference in Seattle,Wa next month..
--------------------
Now we are going to be spending Billions of Dollars for fancy bomb detectors
and we have trouble spending a few thousand to find out if a major suspect
area should be looked at more..


Want to go up to about 8,000" in an old B-747-100 and open the forward
cargo door instead?
Less preparation and most likely the same result..As you have been stating..

Stick with the Cargo Door theory, let the FAA account for the number of
cargo doors that have been modified in accordance with the 1990 AD..I've
seen seven (B-747-100/200) since last july that were not modified and only 2
that were..In all cases the plane records lacked an FAA AD certificate of
compliance for this modification..

So this is a little hogwash:
>Boeing spokesman Doug Webb said the company knew of problems with 747 cargo
doors a year before the United Airlines accident,and that the airlines have
subsequently retrofitted them with steel-reinforced locks.<

I'm willing to bet that Boeing knew of the door problem as early as
1974. And I ask: what made the airlines do this modification; if the FAA
wasn't requiring it..They would have to refile their individual aircraft
airworthiness certificates to do this themselves...

NTSB spokeswoman Shelly Hazle said the agency examined TWA Flight 800's
wreckage for a broken cargo door and discounted it as a cause of the crash.

She did not say that she / the NTSB examined the cargo door, (only the
wreckage) and no one to my knowledge has stated that this particular (now
missing from 3rd party review /examination) cargo door was ever subjected to
the 1990 AD..There is no record that I can find that indicates modification
for compliance to this AD..for this aircraft..

YES,

There are bomb materials residues in the TWA:800 wreckage,
for good reasons:

The FBI Crime lab is great, "a great source of contamination of Bomb
materials" Scripps Howard News Service" has reported 9/20/96, the result
of FBI's WhistleBlower Fredric Whitehurst statement, Whitehurst, who had
reported that "the FBI Lab has major problems with the integrity of
microscopic evidence" and "the accuracy of findings by FBI Lab
technicians".
Brett Mills, the FBI Lab Examiner reported (in the Oklahoma City Bombing
case) that the FBI Lab evidence storage was contaminated with PETN..

The US Justice Department's Inspector General is conducting an
investigation in to the problems at the FBI Laboratory facility and the
effect on cases in progress..

And

From: AP Washington DC (not Smithtown,NY) writer: Richard Keil has
reported that a training exercise for Bomb Sniffing Dogs conducted one
week (7/10/96) earlier (in the month the TWA:800 crashed), at TWA St.
Louis for the local police, may (Also) have been the source of the
residues found in the wreckage of TWA:800.

The FAA had to inform the FBI (9/19) of this training exercise, which may
have contaminated the TWA:800 plane cabin and cargo holds with several
types of bomb materials, PETN, RDX, TNT, Nitroglycerin..etc. These
training excercise sample were designed to allow dogs to sniff out the
escaping gases typical of several types of explosives, and these escaping
gases have microscopicly contaminated several areas of the aircraft prior
to the crash.

The TWA:800 crash cause search once again turns back to the 25 year
history of this and many other B-747s continuing saga of mechanical
problems..And this writer thinks that PanAm103 Lockerbie needs to be
reviewed in relation to the history of this type aircraft..

Ask what happened to the Cargo Door, why was it found nearest to JFK ?

See: AP story at: "www.newsday.com/ap/rnmpg51p.htm"

Get the real B-747 facts at "www.corazon.com"

Draw your own conclusions e-mail'em to President Clinton, VP Al Gore, Chm.
of the US Aviation Safety Committee and the FBI..Or Write Me..

You have a right to know, and a right to fly safely....
Remember, that NO Aircraft Bomb or Bombing has ever been traced to a US
point of Origin..Ever!
--
Yes, according to other sources:

The detected residues may have been on board for a very long time,

See Reuter's News from Yahoo;

www.yahoo.com/headlines/960920/news/stories/crash_7.html

and a follow up..

www.yahoo.com/headlines/960921/news/stories/crash_8.html

I wonder why this aircraft had so many "unique" occurances in it's 25 year
history??
or
Are there 1100 more waiting to fall out of the sky, after they loose a
cargo door?

My Apologies for possibly not checking my sources and their quotations:

There was a crash/explosion of United Airlines DC-6, Near Longmont,
Colorado, USA on November 1, 1955..John Graham Planted a bomb on board in a
plot to kill his mother for her insurance money..And he was caught and
executed for this act..

This was pre FAA and the downfall; of my statement when checked out with
older FAA guy's from the NJ FAA Tech Center..

I inadvertantly mis-quoted a statement from the appointment of FAA Adm D.
Hinson, which read that "there has never been a successful bomb planted on
any flight of US Origin, >>under the jurisdiction of the FAA<<" I was forced
(by you) to remember that the Federal Aviation Act of 1958 in a response to
this 1955 UAL bombing formed the FAA, the "Federal Aviation Agency; which in
1967, reorganized again into the current "Federal Aviation Administration..

And I think the FAA will be renamed in response to the "Safety Initiatives"
proposed programs and lowered (?) budgeting for the next 4 years..

For a History of the US aviation authories see: "www.faa.gov/apa/history.htm"

Do not hesitate to question me (or any others in the newsgroup), I've only
been around for about 50 years and US aviation is about twice as old as I..

I'll post a correction to the NewsGroup shortly...

The Door made AVweb today...See below..

TWA 800: FRESH EVIDENCE (AND LACK OF IT) DAMPENS TERRORIST THEORIES

The latest wrinkle surfaced Friday, when the FAA revealed that the
ill-fated 747-100 was used to drill dogs trained for explosives
detection just weeks before the plane went down. The routine exercises,
conducted aboard the TWA plane by the St. Louis Police and the FAA,
involved tests with explosive materials including PETN and RDX, traces
of which were found on the recovered wreckage. Coupled with other
non-findings -- no shock-wave damage to metal, no pitting of parts or
shrapnel in bodies -- the new FAA info dealt a blow to the FBI's efforts
to support its driving theories: either a bomb or missile brought down
the plane.

NTSB HOPES LIVE-BLAST TRAIL WILL YIELD NEW CLUES
If you can't show it, blow it. The NTSB is hoping a "Hail Mary" pass
down the middle on third and long -- a blast test to show how a
mechanical failure could have triggered the blast -- will reveal new
clues into what brought down TWA Flight 800 almost 10 weeks ago.
Investigators plan computer simulations and lab tests, including putting
fuel in the center tank of a scrapped 747 and blowing it up. Boeing
says there would not be sufficient energy in such an explosion. But
there is a precedent in the Iran Air 747 that blew up on approach to
Madrid 20 years ago, an explosion later traced to a fuel leak. It'll be
a blast finding out who is right.

SPOOKS' WORK IS NEVER DONE
Despite the complete lack of evidence pointing to terrorism in the TWA
800 crash, federal investigators continue unabated in their search for
terrorists to blame, using their worldwide network of intelligence
assets. The FBI is investigating potential scenarios such as an
individual crime motivated by revenge, jealousy, insurance fraud or even
suicide. And even the super-secret NSA, which conducts electronic
surveillance, is intercepting communications and breaking codes in
search of relevant information.

NETIZENS' THEORIES PROVIDE A TWIST IN TWA 800 NEWS
This one could find its way onto "The X-files." Speculation that an
errant missile launched by a U.S. warship or aircraft downed TWA 800
abounds in cyberspace; ditto theories purporting that a baggage door
came open in-flight, or that ET did it -- actually, that a meteorite
pierced the plane. Of course, it's all being covered up by the
government, many say. "It's just not true," said FBI's New York boss
James Kallstrom, adding that investigators had gone to the highest
levels of DoD to virtually rule out friendly fire. No comment from
Agent Mulder.

There seems to be some airline operator interest in B-747 doors and requests
for recommendations for inspection..I feel that some operators may be
worried about their own ground service (Stairs) techniques.. and want
reassurance that their planes are "OK".. This is insurance $$ driven..

I wonder who could have reported this to the Risk Analyzers in Ohio?

An easy way to check on door mods should have been to ask Boeing about
order for FAA approved parts, but I'm told that information is not generally
available.


I go to Houston next week to talk about B-747 Door frames..

And maybe the AIA Aerospace Industries Association and ATA meeting in about
2 weeks in Seattle..

This FAA AD hinges on "known U.S. owners and operators" there are at least
173(?) B-747s that carry N numbers; the majority of these are 100/200
series, lots of them are freighters, operated by Southern Air Transport,
AirAmerica, EverGreen, FlyingTigers, UPS, etc...In addition there are ???
B-747s owned by leasing/other agencies, but operated by USAir,
NorthWest/KLM, AirLingus and others..for US passeneger service..These tend
to be international hoppers like TWA:800.

This Document lists about 10 aircraft that have the mods done/approved?. But
there are still problems, and aircraft newly transferred to N number status:
do not automatically have to have this Mod completed/approved prior to
beginning service usage..Some Airline are concerned, And I have toured
persons at Continential/NorthWest thru your site..Their Managements are
concerned:

1. Their aircraft are not in compliance / insurance cost is more..
2. The AD may be ineffective.
3. The AirSafety Act of 1988, makes inactions in these matters a felony.
That is aimed at operator management personnel.
(No one has ever recieved the mandatory sentence, after being found
guily)
(A number of NorthWest Personnel were found guilty several years ago)

It is my personal opinion that the Atlanta FAA inspection office, who is
the approval authority, is:
"Soft as A Marshmello"
when it comes to major aircarriers..
------------------------------------------------------------------

Barry,

Think about this:

There was a Boeing Factory Advisory Note in the mid 1970s on this door..
There is a different and much more expensive door available..in 1976.
Why was it designed?

There is a 1990 AD on this door..
Why weren't all B-747-100/200s modified?

There is a 1996 AD on this door..
That indicates that the previous Boeing/FAA AD actions were
ineffective,
it's probably a bad design that everyone is (was) ignoring..

>From the 1996 FAA AD:

"Since the unsafe condition described in this AD is likely to exist or develop
on other airplanes of the same type design, the FAA issued Telegraphic
AD T96-01-51 to prevent malfunction of the safety interlock system of
the main deck cargo door, which could result in the opening of the main
deck side cargo door during flight, and subsequent rapid decompression
of the airplane. The AD requires repetitive (:Manual/Visual) inspections
of the latch safety pins of the main deck side cargo door to ensure that the
door is
securely latched and locked."

Where is this required manual inspection on the Preflight Check list?
(Continential Has it now) What is the interval of inspection?..
I recommend every flight from the inside after door closure..
As a Flight Engineer Duty..
Apparently the indicating system, as per 1990 AD does not work well..

-----------------------------------------------------
From the 1996 AD:

"Compliance: Required as indicated, unless accomplished previously.
To prevent malfunction of the safety interlock system of the
main deck cargo door and subsequent rapid decompression of the
airplane due to in-flight opening of the main deck side cargo door,
accomplish the following:..........."

And

"Note 1: This AD applies to each airplane identified in the
preceding applicability provision, regardless of whether it has been
otherwise modified, altered, or repaired in the area subject to the
requirements of this AD. ...."
----------------------------------------------------
This last note appears on the 1990 AD..too!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
The FAA wanted to do all B-747s doors again in Jan 1996.
Why?
The rule making process may take 1-2 years.
What made the FAA react this way??

Poor Design, Bad/worn/damaged Cargo Doors, Bad/ineffective MODs???

Now,

Wouldn't you like to have access to the TWA:800 Cargo Door, Maintence Jacket
and Preflight check list? I still can't find a Compliance Certificate for
the Cargo Door on TWA:800, and No one has answered why the TWA:800 Cargo
Door was found closest to JFK..


I believe that this retrofited door (Left Hand side) is of the same
configuration as the RH forward Cargo door and joins the same midline the
wiring bundle on its way to the cockpit instrumentation. Notice that some
of these were out of factory passenger to freighter conversions, that used
the swing up and out door...Other were refitted at Boeing during
production..Notice that these doors had the 1990 AD instrumentation Mods
required and the the AD requires the diconnection and regular inspection of
the door latching mechanism..

I've added this AD (thanks) to my list of things to discuss..with the
operators..

Anyway:
The Engines catch on fire due to excessive fuel feed or rupture of the fuel
preheater system/lines..Fuel over feed is dramatic: lots of flame smoke but
no real damage..This happens once or twice a week at most major airports,
Pilots swear, A&Ps get the blame, I think that most are crew caused not
malfunctions..

Shut down of compressor stage or damage to engine pod/preheating system is
another matter..Large object(s) in FAN stage jam /slow fan ( Damage Main
shaft Bearing Severely) cause internal overfuel conditions: Lots of fire out
the exhaust..scrap engines, lots of paper work..

FOD to outside of engine damaging fuel system severely is dramatic:
passengers see fire from under cowling/ballistic shields etc. panic from
sudden loud noises from outside (engine) and passenger caused loud noises
inside..This has happened on the ground several times in the early/mid
1980's..Aircraft hit other aircraft/trucks and engine let go..Pylon bolts of
the correct types have always worked well. The substitution of these for
other fasteners, because of recurrant cracking of the correct pylon type was
the wrong solution..Fix the engine or Wind instead..Bolts were cheaper in
dollars, but not lives..


I agree:
>Very very suspicious to door open, baggage into engine #3, catch
fire,explode into #4 engine.<
: Sometimes the engines explode forward of plane and damage engines on
opposite side too. (El Al)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Also:

Adding a new door to an older aircraft causing a redistribution and an
increase airframe stress is a bad idea from thought one...Only the original
high safety design levels (now reduced for 300/400s and B-757/767/777s) has
saved many lives and Boeing's pocketbook, too. Our FAA allowed this!!

A passenger B-747 aircraft is usually high profit one, retirement to
freighter status is usually due to economics, (i.e. this plane has bad
problems or we got it cheap) and the higher priced door is/was usually left
out of the re useability equation by the accountants, who really run US
airlines.

Freighters are usually loaded better for fuel ($) efficiency, and with the
correct equipment at most US Air Freight operators, than the passenger
versions, who are hurrying to make gate departure times..

(I've started to look for ladders and other local adaptions on loading all
aircraft)

It all boils down to dollars,

See Clinton Foster's book "Why Airplanes Crash!"

An important aspect of the Jan 1996 B-747 AD is that they are requiring the
disconnection of the electrical system..In the same cable bundle as the RH
Cargo Door..

Most older B-747s have had several major rewiring jobs (total or partial),
where the contractor left (industry Typical practice) the old wires in
place..I've not given enough thought to your statements about the keying of
microphones and door activations,,Maybe there is a problem..

My you've been busy...

Yes, there are major problems with the conversion to freighter configuration
for B-747s, by after market groups..(most of these conversions Stink)

The factory based freighter designs are for a more substancial wingloading,
than the passenger designs..The aftermarket converters are skirting
disasters of another type..and the operators pay a higher insurance premium..

Remember, I said that TWA:800 Production # 153 started life as a freighter?
TWA got an extension of service life (7/92) for this aircraft on the basis
that it was a freighter and operated since 1976 at a lower (passenger) wing
loading..

Even the FAA was critical and required several mods that were completed in
oct-dec 1992, before approval for passenger service was given..(7,500 Hrs,
extended service life rating, I think but can not verify) (also almost all
records for this aircraft have disappeared)

TWA removed the quieter/better/more powerful GE replacement CF-6 engines and
stuck a set of very old P&Ws worth about 10 Million less on this plane..
(The engine change must have reduce Max thrust 20,000+ lbs.)

Had the 7/17 failure not occured; I'm sure that about jan 1998, this one
would have been sold/scrapped..
------------------------------------------------------
Also, Evergreen Air is talking to my clients about the safety aspects of all
of their B-747 freighters/passengers and the future insurability of these
planes..

Some of these have extra doors, too.
------------------------------------------------------
I'll be at Indianapolis(Fyling Tigers) and Chicago O'Hare(United) next week
and I plan to look at freighters as well as passenger B-747s..

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Comment:

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barry@corazon.com